How Starkey got narky over discipline
Tough-talking historian tells TES why discipline is all-important
Teachers faced with a classroom of unruly pupils are forced to act like “a lion tamer dealing with savage beasts”, according to TV historian and author David Starkey.
The celebrity academic starred this week in the first episode of Jamie’s Dream School, the latest television project by Jamie Oliver, which aims to get troubled young people back into education.
Dr Starkey joined other big names ranging from Rolf Harris to Alastair Campbell to re-engage a group of teenagers who had failed to get five good GCSEs.
Dr Starkey told The TES that his time on the programme was, overall, a positive one, but he claimed a lack of discipline meant that even the very best teachers would have failed to get through.
“What struck me was that you spent hardly any time teaching the subject,” Dr Starkey said. “You are like a lion tamer dealing with savage beasts.
“The saddest thing is that you totally fail to get through. One girl said she loved history but said this was just like every other class she’d had. These children are destroyed by this process and it is because of this forced liberalism - it is unkind to students and to teachers.”
Dr Starkey, who makes a point of the lack of discipline throughout the programme - and even refuses to teach at one point - said a school is unable to succeed without the right structure.
“Nobody paid any attention to discipline (in the programme). The TV crew were more worried about the design of the sofas. It is why I threw a great tizz after the first class. The idea was if you get a group of wonderful teachers then the kids will respond and do wonderful things. This is not possible without the right structure and ethos in the school,” the historian said.
“It is what (Mossbourne Academy head) Sir Michael Wilshaw says and is clear in the evidence of the best of the academies and the major independent schools. Clearly they get rid of the bad teachers, but overall they create a structure. There is an assumption that the children will listen to the teacher.”
And Dr Starkey said it was ultimately the children who lose the most. “The whole thing is a tragedy,” he said. “There was no one there who had an IQ lower than 100, and there were some that had ones much higher. Their problem was that no one had ever made them pay attention.”
REVIEW - Stars in the ascendant
Jamie’s Dream School Channel 4, 2 March Series continues on Wednesdays
“You’re all here, I’m told, because you’ve failed.”
This, historian David Starkey believes, is the way to engage underachieving teenagers.
It is not entirely clear what Jamie Oliver and Channel 4 are hoping to achieve with this show. In some professions, the best practitioners are often also the best known. But this is not necessarily the case in, say, history.
Starkey is described in the publicity material as “arguably Britain’s leading presenter of history on TV”. Possibly this translates as “able to convey history to the uninterested masses”.
Starkey, however, appears not to have read the publicity material. “You’re so fat, you can barely move,” he tells 17-year-old Cono to the horror of head John D’Abbro, the sole qualified member of staff.
But all of this takes second place to the glorious diva-ness of Starkey. “There has to be the ethos. And, finally, there have to be sanctions,” he says.
He is demanding discipline; Mr D’Abbro is demanding that Starkey be disciplined.
At this point, the pupils seem something of an irrelevance.
- Original headline: Jamie’s celeb lion tamer takes on ‘savage beasts’
Comment (33)
IQ?
What is intelligence? Is it really that easy to measure? There must better yardstick than that.
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10:17
4 March, 2011
onstanleyon
Hope EVERY teacher in the country saw Jamie Oliver 'Dream School' episode 1. Sorry BigFrankEM but Starkey got it all completely wrong.
Recipe for Genuine car-crash TV.....
1. Simply take an Oxbridge educated man like David Starkey and with no teacher-training of any sort place him in front of a group of teenagers to teach them.
2. Next remind yourself of what Conservative MP Nick Gibb, the 'schools minister', said within days of taking office: "I would rather have......graduate from Oxbridge without a PGCE teaching in a school than a.........graduate from one of the rubbish universities with a PGCE."
3. Stand back & watch an educated man demonstrate his total inability to communicate. Watch him resort to insulting kids & blaming THEM for their subsequent behaviour......A masterclass in how NOT to teach.
David Starkey is excellent evidence for insisting that ALL teachers in EVERY state school including free schools, academies and independent schools which receive any public funding should be qualified in Initial Teacher Education.
If only Gove, Nick Gibb & the ConDems were also watching!
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14:29
4 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
Quote: 'Dr Starkey..........claimed a lack of discipline meant that even the very best teachers would have failed to get through..........Dr Starkey said. “You are like a lion tamer dealing with savage beasts.'
What a complete liar; he seems to have forgotten many people saw the show, saw HIS poor discipline & saw his pathetically poor teaching. A good insight into David Starkeys lack of honesty though is the following quote from him in the Daily Tlegraph: "During the lesson, I had a mild altercation with one boy, Conor. It was silly and trivial, with mild insults on both sides – he commenting unfavourably on my height and I commenting on his weight" Having watched the programme it was obvious that the boy was responding to Starkey's initial totally unprovoked insult. Starkey has been interviewed several times & has tried to twist the facts to make himself a victim; not a good trait for a historian. I would if he alters all the history he comes into contact with?
Starkey was totaly UNPROFESSIONAL and if he'd actually been a teacher in THOSE circumstances he would have been at least suspended for deliberately insulting Connor; end of story. That message from the headteacher John d'Abbro came through loud & clear.
Starkey simply doesn't know the difference between LECTURING adults & TEACHING children and this explains the contents of the programme & his sheer lack of 'teaching' ability.
Starkey completely mistakes ''teaching'' for ''learning''. Teaching isn't about SHOWING or lecturing or just talking to; it involves involving the kids in their own learning. Teaching isn't about the teacher; it is about the learner. No wonder the kids got bored & started to walk all over him.
Forget that Starkey called a boy 'fat'; this is much deeper than one insult. Does Starkey know anything about the P-word? I'm talking about PROFESSIONALISM! To insult a child in his care for whatever reason is totally unprofessional. End of story! There is no excuse for this poor behaviour from Starkey.
Starkey has provided incontrovertible evidence of why teachers should undergo Initial Teacher Education on a PGCE. However, like Gove, Starkey just doesn't get 'it'; the difference is Starkey just damages a few kids while Gove will damage a generation.
Quote: “It is what (Mossbourne Academy head) Sir Michael Wilshaw says and is clear in the evidence of the best of the academies and the major independent schools. Clearly they get rid of the bad teachers....'
No independent headteacher or Michael Wilshaw would support Starkey if they saw that programme; Starkey would be one of those so-called bad teachers that were got rid of!
David Starkey is in need of a course in Initial Teacher Education; he'll have to be quick before that other idiot Gove closes all the good ITE courses in universities down.
(As if to rub salt into the injury; the day after the programme went on air Gove granted QTS to all FT lecturers. Thus effectively saying anyone can teach in a secondary school even if you haven't got any secondary teaching experience & were not actually qualified in the secondary sector......total madness & an insult to our profession!)
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14:51
4 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
God knows I'm not a disciplinarian. Most kids don't need a heavy hand, but the ones who do make things bad for everyone else too,
These kids need to be handed over to a good old-fashioned regimental sergeant major, and kept with him until they behave to his satisfaction.
After a few weeks of 5.00am rises, cold showers, and lots of square bashing, I'm sure they would appreciate their school a lot more.
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17:25
4 March, 2011
David Getling
Come on people - think! How much tape do you think ended up on the cutting-room floor? What makes good television? If you want to publicize a programme - get lots of publicity. Well done C4's PR department.
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20:11
4 March, 2011
Pommard
I agree Pommard things were edited to get the right car-crash-TV effect; but unless they edited out all of Starkey's actual 'teaching' AND re-edited to show Starkey throwing the first insult AND edited it to show Starkey introduce himself to the kids telling them: 'you are all failures' when he never said or did these things I'm not sure that let's Starkey 'off'.
Starkey made a complete ass of himself assuming HE can 'teach' when he actualy doesn't know what teaching is and now he is blaming the kids on the show, the whole state sector educational system (NOT the private sector), all parents of 'feral' children & all secondary school teachers. The guy is a complete idiot.
However as you say well done C4's PR department they got us all talking about it. However as teachers we can hijack the discourse & direct it towards ensuring the continuation of PGCE's (which is what Starkey lacked) rather than the rubbishing of kids, state schools & state school teachers.
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10:38
5 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
David G,
Quote: 'God knows I'm not a disciplinarian. Most kids don't need a heavy hand, but the ones who do make things bad for everyone else too,'
So you are in favour of physical punishment with a 'heavy hand' are you? Basing your argument on what exactly?
Quote: 'These kids need to be handed over to a good old-fashioned regimental sergeant major, and kept with him until they behave to his satisfaction. After a few weeks of 5.00am rises, cold showers, and lots of square bashing, I'm sure they would appreciate their school a lot more.'
Have you been advising Gove? The daft thing about your comments is that the Shoot-First-Teach-Next teachers on TV last week (including ex-RSM's) talked about their military skills in 'discipline' in exactly the same terms that 'good' teachers talk about their skills in 'discipline' . No sign of shouting, cold showers, square bashing etc.
You talk nonsense. You appear to have very little experience of actually teaching in the English education system and certainly very little 11-16 experience. I do begin to wonder why you explain away Starkeys behaviour by also Insulting pupils & belittling them as Starkey did. These actions aren't a successful way of teaching in ANY system. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
When the likes of Gove & Nick Gibb are deliberately undermining the professional status of teaching and telling people anyone can teach, while sending messages out that ITE is of no-use to anybody; I do think Starkey is a stark reminder of how little they know.
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10:50
5 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
I was horrified at how David Starkey handled these kids. They are not an easy bunch but he caused problems for himself. I thought the pupils were very restrained in the face of his treatment of them. I shudder to think what he or perhaps the other famous people would do if tired or stressed doing a full day of teaching. What about his joke to the camera about ADHD???
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11:53
5 March, 2011
yellowbelt
David G,
Glad you've cleared up your 'heavy hand' comment.
Quote: 'And where did I explain away Starkey's behaviour or insult or belittle pupils?'
I took your comments: 'Most kids don't need a heavy hand, but the ones who do make things bad for everyone else too....' and 'These kids need to be handed over to a good old-fashioned regimental sergeant major' as an implied insult to the kids on the TV show. I also took them in the CONTEXT of support for Starkey's behaviour which you have posted on other blogs.
If I have got my wires twisted: Feel free to explain on this blog how the kids DIDN'T actually behave badly and to explain how Starkey was absolutely useless.........now where did I put the Lithium tablets?
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13:06
5 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
In the other thread I pointed out that deciding the value of teacher training, based one individual's performance [on television] was statistically invalid.
I made NO COMMENT on Starkey's behaviour.
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14:54
5 March, 2011
David Getling
He is not a teacher, therefore it doesn’t matter how much knowledge you have on a subject, you have to know how to impart it on to a student, and he did not. He did not have the correct approach or mind-set to help those children. The fact that he gave up at one part is extremely hypercritical, if you show children you give up, there only going to do the same. He is there to help children that have given up in the past so why now copy them??? That’s no help and shows no support.
Children are put into stereotypical categories these days, instead of moaning we should just help.
If we say the national curriculum cannot stay static and needs gradual change over the years then why have a class taught by someone with very old opinions and an aged mind-set on teaching.
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16:09
5 March, 2011
rhiannatidd
Just three simple points.
He obviously came across as a spiteful nasty man who does not seem to like children.
Being good on camera and at socialising at Oxbridge cocktail parties does not seem to correlate to being able to move a child's learning forward.
I was totally against this 'Dream School' but it seems to be backfiring on 'elite', and showing the world that teaching is not just a second choice career for failed engineers/ musicians/ businesspeople.
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21:10
5 March, 2011
BrickLane
David G,
Quote: 'In the other thread I pointed out that deciding the value of teacher training, based one individual's performance [on television] was statistically invalid.'
But THAT isn't what is being argued. If Gove supports Conservative MP Nick Gibb (schools minister) ideas on initial teacher training then he is establishing a 'general rule'. Within days of taking office Gibb was quoted as saying: "I would rather have physics graduate from Oxbridge without a PGCE teaching in a school than a physics graduate from one of the rubbish universities with a PGCE." The rule appears to be anyone with an Oxbridge degree can teach.
As a mathematician you should know one counter example destroys a general rule; Starkey is a fine example of that counter example.
As far as Starkey, Gove, Gibb & yourself goes you aren't alone in thinking anyone, with some 'knowledge', can just walk into a classroom & 'teach' without any formal 'training'. That is why EVERY self respecting teacher on this thread is celebrating the humiliation of Starkey.
I'm still waiting for your 'direct' comment about Starkey as so far you seem to have simply blamed the children he insulted for THEIR behaviour. I still see 'indirect' support for Starkey in your comment: 'These kids need to be handed over to a good old-fashioned regimental sergeant major.'
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10:09
6 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
test
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23:13
6 March, 2011
father 4justice
There is something rotten in the core of these comments.
While Starkey provides the easy headlines with his waspish evisceration of his subjects, the self-fulfilling prophecy of low expectations and a deluded emphasis on 'learners' is the real fly in the ointment.
Leaf through our education publications, from the national curriculum to the national framework and you'd be hard pressed to find mention of 'student' or even 'pupils.' That would be an admission of something Dickensian and wicked in the corridors of our secondary schools, wouldn't it OFSTED?
Everyone's a 'learner'. Just take a moment to consider the damage such nonsense has caused. The implicit assertion is that our 'learners' must have choice. All as part of a fluffy and liberal 'leaning' system that wishes for their approval and recommendation; to be consulted on their 'learning'.
Teaching is out of fashion, so is any lesson that does not get filed under the 'champagne and cocktails' format. Since when did capitulating to children's desires result in a productive society? My son needs me to guide him, support him, and nurture him. Not leave him to his own devices to 'learn; if I did that he wouldn't 'learn' anything. Except how to complete Super Mario Brothers.
Capitulating to a framework of 'differentiation' and 'HDHD' is a cast iron method of ensuring a rabble of disrespectful, PlayStation- induced- boredom -inducing miscreants who could not give a toss about education, discipline, learning for learning's sake and the added bonus of understanding the pleasure in being quiet as a matter of common courtesy and respect.
These kids are the fine result of all 11, 12, even 13 years of state education, most of them couldn't even sit still. Their lack of interest in anything that didn't have Blackberry written on it or Facebook before it is a national disgrace, and please, I'm interested to know, is D. Starkey the reason for that?
Responsible for a whole generation of kids who wouldn't even get a job emptying my bins, never mind be expected to be even remotely interested in the works of Shakespeare? The parlous state of our liberal 'Education' system has far more to answer for thnt Starkey; a man who has accomplished much but who became unstuck by a stupid comment.
Yeah, that's it, poor kids. It's the lack of respect shown them; that' the reason they're all at the bottom of the pile after almost 150 years ofcombined PGCE trained teachers. Not the fact that they have been given rather too much choice in how the classrooms are run, rather too much rope; resulting in a mass asphyxiation of their intellects, their development, and ultimately our society.
Blame it all on Starkey. Good grief.
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23:14
6 March, 2011
father 4justice
Found this on the telegraph website after posting, I think this is exactly the point I was rather long windedly driving at:
Mr Patriarca led fee-paying William Hulme's Grammar School in Manchester when it was tempted out of the private sector by Labour in 2007.
"It is politicised in a way which seems to find achievement embarrassing. It is preoccupied with the less able and the social misfit – which would be fine if it actually achieved anything in dealing with such children. It doesn't because it panders to them – it prioritises their needs over the needs of the vast majority."
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23:37
6 March, 2011
father 4justice
father 4justice,
Quote: 'Everyone's a 'learner'. Just take a moment to consider the damage such nonsense has caused. The implicit assertion is that our 'learners' must have choice. All as part of a fluffy and liberal 'leaning' system that wishes for their approval and recommendation; to be consulted on their 'learning'.'
I haven't read such rubbish since I lost bought a copy of the Daily Mail.
Everyone student/pupil is called a 'learner' because they are there to 'learn'; not just to be 'taught'. I hate to inform you but we have taken a step forward in 'education' and identified that 'learning' is the name-of-the-game. This has nothing to do with 'politics' and everything to do with students, pupils & learning.
Quote: 'Teaching is out of fashion, so is any lesson that does not get filed under the 'champagne and cocktails' format.......'
Teachers may teach an absolutely fantastic lesson but if nobody 'learns' anything during that lesson then the teaching was of no use. There was a wonderful cartoon a few years back that showed two children playing with a dog...........'I taught my dog to talk' said the first. 'I can't hear him talking' said the second. 'I said I taught him, I didn't say he learned it!' That just about sums up my argument: Teachers may actually 'teach', but we can only look at the effectiveness of that teaching if we see what is 'learned'. This isn't being PC or 'left-wing' or having a politicised agenda in a way. It is just good teaching.
Quote: 'Capitulating to a framework of 'differentiation' and 'HDHD' is a cast iron method of ensuring a rabble of disrespectful, PlayStation- induced- boredom -inducing miscreants who could not give a toss about education, discipline, learning for learning's sake and the added bonus of understanding the pleasure in being quiet as a matter of common courtesy and respect.'
Firstly 'differentiation' is about teaching to the individual pupil, student or learner; are you sure you understand what it is you are arguing against? If you are arguing 'differentiation' is somehow 'wrong' then feel free to offer evidence in favour of teaching a topic to 30 individuals without bothering to check if all 30 have 'got it' as individuals. What evidence do you have? Secondly I always thought 'HDHD' was 'high definition-high drama', I could be wrong! Alternatively you may have meant 'ADHD' in which case I have no idea what you mean by 'capitulating to a framework of' ADHD; your expression contains no meaning. The rest of that paragraph also appears to be rather rambling and full of Daily Mail'isms. No idea what you are on about I have seen no evidence of 'a rabble of disrespectful, PlayStation- induced- boredom -inducing miscreants who could not give a toss about education' in my 30 years of teaching & I have never seen any reference to any of this in any Ofsted report. (I am rather concerned about the being comment: 'quiet as a matter of common courtesy and respect' as any teacher will tell you that very little learning takes place in absolute silence. If you were totally silent as a child that'll explain a great deal.
Quote: 'Blame it all on Starkey. Good grief.'
Do you know what a straw man argument is? First you set up something nobody has said, then you successfully argue against it, claiming that you have defeated the original argument...........Nobody has blamed EVERYTHING on Starkey. However the great majority of teachers have viewed Starkeys lesson as an object example of how NOT to teach. Feel free to explain to us how starting a lesson by calling your learners 'failures' followed by picking on one boy & calling him fat contributes to anyones learning?
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11:06
7 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
As usual on TES a lot of pretentionin the comments. Are you saying a child has NEVER got to you?
That apart, I really take issue with the teachers on here who seem to be saying, if you make your lessons fun, they'll all listen and behave. Yeah, right. Not if they have spent the last 10 years doing the opposite.
And as for total silence - well not all period no, but at least when something is being presented.
Or am I too old-fashioned to believe that interrupting every few minutes is acceptable?
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14:26
7 March, 2011
mzgobi
Aside from the private argument between two people on this thread I think Pommard hit the nail on the head..THIS IS ENTERTAINMENT FOR EVERYONE!!!!
Did anyone honestly think that the dreamschool would work????
Like Big Brother this is not a 'social experiment' it is TV...for it to work you have to have conflict..how boring would it have been if all of the young people had behaved, learned and supported everything the teacher said or did?
Therefore we have areas of pre-planned conflict, a selection of (well meaning and well intentioned) celebrities with no training, teach a group of young people who will replicate the behaviour they have probably demonstrated in school when they had to be there. For these young people this is their 15 mins of fame..and the more you argue the more TV exposure you will get....therfore the more you are remembered..therfore the greater chance you have of getting some sort of Z list celebrity job on TV. If they are all as 'intelligent' as Dr Starkey claims I have no doubt they have worked this out for themselves.......at worst they could get a job on daytime TV out of this 'employment opportunity' they have been offered, at best they will become a 'spokesperson' for how the education system is rubbish in the UK...it's a win win for them.
This was pointed out to me by one of my Year 10's who asked...How bad do we have to be to get Jamie Oliver to come to Nottingham?
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14:53
7 March, 2011
dekT5E
Booke Bond-
"I haven't read such rubbish since I lost bought a copy of the Daily Mail"
Well go and buy the Guardian then. And you accuse me of having an argument made of straw?
So education is noy in a aprlous state? Well you'd know, having been at the chalk face for 30 odd years. A little naval gazing of your own mat well prove instructive.
And yes I did make a typo with HDHD, I meant ADHD. Well Done. In a rather unlettered reply, the only salient point you managed to make.
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15:43
7 March, 2011
father 4justice
Sorry about the typos Bond. 'now' 'parlous' 'might'.
No need to write in though.
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15:45
7 March, 2011
father 4justice
father 4justice,
I said you had a STRAWMAN argument, not an argument made of straw. Look it up.
THere are two ways of teaching for 30 years. One of them you repeat the same year of teaching 30 times & the other you reflect at the each of each of your 30 years and improve; you'd call it 'naval gazing' most teachers call it good practice.
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21:40
7 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
mzgobi,
Don't get me wrong, nobody is perfect; least of all me.
Quote: 'That apart, I really take issue with the teachers on here who seem to be saying, if you make your lessons fun, they'll all listen and behave.'
What is wrong with making lessons interesting? Sometimes 'interesting' is also 'fun' but also 'fun' lessons aren't automatically 'good' lessons. The idea of NOT making 'interesting' lessons isn't really in line with good teaching or good learning.
Quote: 'And as for total silence - well not all period no, but at least when something is being presented.'
Exactly. Kids don't learn in absolute silence & silence has a role. But the pursuit of silence for silence sake isn't what I'd call good teaching or good learning.
Call that pretentious if you want; I'll not lose any sleep.
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21:48
7 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
David, I found your comment on Lithium tablets upsetting and discriminatory and have therefore reported it as such. I am sure that it was not meant to be so.
Isn't this whole 'debate' a bit of a sad reflection of where we are?
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1:39
8 March, 2011
marell
@ Brooke Bond, I agree with you. This obsession with silence is terrible. A pupil can be completely silent but not understand what is going on nor be engaged.
Unfortunately OFSTED inspectors do not see it that way.
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10:18
8 March, 2011
remika28
Marell, that's PATHETIC!
One of the reasons society is in such a mess is the vastly excessive political correctness espoused by people like yourself. Grow up!
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11:02
8 March, 2011
David Getling
David,
The opposite of (what you feel is) 'political correctness' is not rudeness.
For the record: Being offended by people like yourself making jokes at the expence of people with depression isn't 'pathetic'.
I have argued with you several times & think you a nasty little man; but having an ego the size of a small South American country I simply roll in laughter at your Puerile insults.
If DG offended anyone while insulting me; I'm sorry.
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16:18
8 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
Brooke Bond,
I do not want to start (or should it be continue) a flame war and I will not comment on your teaching views. But before I was a teacher, I worked as an electrical engineer in a factory. The factory made tractor mounted headgcutters grass cutters etc. Anyway, my workmate and I were walking down the shop floor one day, and my work mate said "Someones done a s&*t paint job on that headgecutter. "How do you know?" I asked "Your not a paint sprayer, your a welder!" He looked at me and said "You dont need to be a paint sprayer, to know that someone has done a s&*t paint job. The most that it means that I do not know how to put it right. However, that fact alone, does not make my comment any less important or relevant."
Funny this was the most intelligent thing I have heard and it was from someone without a degree (hopefully you will understand the implied irony). The lessons I learned from this experience are as follows:
1) People have the right to point out things that are wrong especially if is it sticks out like a sore thumb. Even if they do not know how to fix it and it isnt there area of expertise.
2) The person who was at fault in this situation, was not the welder (he was just pointing out what was wrong). It was only partly the paint sprayers fault (he did spray it after all). But mainly it was the Inspector / managers fault for turning a blind eye to the spray job, or even worse not even looking at the spray job, or even worse than that acknowledging the spray job was not up to standard but not prepared to listen to anyone who had no experience of paint spraying, who told him that you should do something about it. And even worse than that shouting down (or try to belittle them) anybody who even tried to point out the obvious.
There is no doubt in my mind that David Starkey had an over inflated opinion of himself. I am sure however, if you could sit him down (in a private situation) he would probably admit he made a mistake. But just for a second look at it from his point of view. When those pupils walked into that class you could see David was bricking himself. He hid it well, but any NQT or teacher who remembers what it is like to first walk into a classroom (especially if you know it is a "challenging group") would have spotted David's body language straight away.
I will give David this much, he probably knew the pupils were going to be challenging. Deep down he probably knew he was going to have difficulties, but he did it anyway. With all due respect to David I do not think he is doing it to be famous, I believe he thought that he could inspire children to love history. His mistake was that he choose the wrong tactic. Because there is no doubt in my mind he would have thought about how is was going to present himself to the students a 1000 times before the lesson. He got it wrong. But I will not condemn him for that.
But the fact that he does not have those skills that many teachers have gained (and still gaining) over the years, does not mean that his opinion is any less valid. He was just saying it how he saw it. And that is no bad thing.
At the moment I work in colleges, Although I have taught "challenging students" and I can say from my own experience todays generation (on average, of course there are exceptions) do not have the mental stamina my generation have. And bear in mind the students I teach are hand picked so they are supposed to be the "best of the best". The question is what do we do about it. If it was just a question of making the lessons so interesting that the kids will learn, then we need to find teachers who have managed this, replicate their strategies and material, and teach ITT teachers to teach this way.
But I fear students not learning is as simple as they are not listening. They are not listening because "they dont see the point of...." They dont see the point of ..... because no-one has probably told them that trying to learn, trying to work something out themselves before going to the teacher, excepting that they may have to put in effort (and probably a lot of it) before information will sink in, is the main lesson every student should learn. Or to put it another way the most important lesson a student should learn is perseverance.
Before anybody highlights any lapses in grammar, spelling mistakes etc (especially to try to win an argument) I would like it known that I am writing from my sickbed. Although for anybody who cares it is just flu.
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11:14
9 March, 2011
Deskstar
Deskstar
Teaching is a bit more complicated than welding...........I used to have an annoying headteacher (& physics teacher) who continually put his staff down with the comment: ''come on' it isn't rocket science''. Eventually I 'lost it' in one meeting and pointed out that being a mathematician I actually understood rocket science, but as yet nobody had a viable theory on human interactions inside a classroom. I invited him to offer his own theory. Funny enough he thought I was being facetious.
Quote: '.....if you could sit him down (in a private situation) he would probably admit he made a mistake.'
Interesting episode two. Firstly Starkey argued that Connor 'started it' even going so far as to claim he had a good memory, then he came round to trying to sort 'the problem' out. I still don't think he understands how HE kicked off that situation but he does seem to have rescued the situation. He asked advice from others; brilliant! He engaged with the kids, he showed respect to the kids (& got it back) and funny enough he improved. Well done to Starkey he turned it around. :)
Quote: '....the fact that he does not have those skills that many teachers have gained (and still gaining) over the years, does not mean that his opinion is any less valid.'
I was critical of his opinion when his opinion focussed on him being 'right' & the kids being 'wrong'. You noted that Starkey had pre-judged the situation and had made up his mind BEFORE meeting the kids; I do think that may have made a lot of his early opinions 'invalid'.
Quote: 'then we need to find teachers who have managed this, replicate their strategies and material, and teach ITT teachers to teach this way.'
Yes I agree. And in all current ITE courses I come across, this does actually happen; the more strategies the better. But ITE is much more than just a bag of tricks. Initial Teacher Educaion in this country last about 9 months with most of the time in two school placements. (Gove keeps quoting Finland but fails to point out that their ITE lasting 5 years with all teachers qualified up to masters level.)
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21:56
9 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
Rock on Father4Justice - the first intelligent comment I have seen about this show in a Teaching forum. Children need many things to help them learn, but one of the most important issues is setting boundaries. A world where children are allowed to think they are more important than adults, and adults have to earn their respect rather than vice versa, is completely upsidedown. And yes, Connor is fat - although telling him so in public was not smart or helpful.
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15:05
10 March, 2011
GMEd2009
Brooke Bond,
Quote: Teaching is a bit more complicated than Welding.....
Really, I dont think so, I have done both. Well what I mean by that is I can join to bits of metal together so they wont come apart but that dont make me a master welder. I wish I could foward your comments to the welders at Rolls Royce who have to be trained up to such a high standard to do their job. It is that sort of attitude that really puts the public's back up.
Your second point does not cancel out my point. I said if Starky was asked in private (being asked in private with several million people watching does not count). Starky is a proud man that could not accept that he is in the wrong in public. It seems to me the older you get, the more incapable people are in admitting they could be wrong, for fear that will destroy their ego and they also think that there opinion is the only one that matters (because they are the professional).
On the third point you miss what I said entirely, It is not about who is right and who is wrong, it is this sort of point scoring that has dogged education for years. Personally I dont care about such things (in the long run they are irrelavent). The important thing is that we find out what is not working and put it right. That is what the private sector does. Starky for all his faults correctly pointed out that these students have short attention spans. Note Jamie Oliver also said a similar thing in the first program.
Wether we like it or not, good teaching alone will not cure all ills, there are other factors at play which needs to be addressed. If the goverment wants to pay me to find out what they are and how we might solve them, then I will give it a go. But let us not pretend that no-one elses opinion is valid.
The first thing I would do If I were hired would be to hire that "welder" because the one thing he had which many teachers dont seem to have is objectivity and common sense. Simply put "say it as you see it."
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16:20
10 March, 2011
Deskstar
GMEd2009
Quote: 'one of the most important issues is setting boundaries'
Who couldn't agree with that statement? But there is absolutely no logical connection to your next statement.
Quote: 'A world where children are allowed to think they are more important than adults, and adults have to earn their respect rather than vice versa, is completely upsidedown.'
More important than adults? Surely adults & children are equally important. Your assumption that adults are MORE important shows how little you know about building relations with children.
As for earning respect; what EXACTLY is wrong with earning respect? How is that 'upsidedown'?
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22:37
10 March, 2011
Brooke Bond
Deskstar
Carry on welding!
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22:40
10 March, 2011
Brooke Bond